Curse

wheel · Mar 09, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

I'm making this post to put up accurate information comparing the various energy management spells that are out there for monks.

A little notation explanation should be given first:

Recycle: Term used to describe the total time a skill takes to go through its cycle, Cast+Recharge time. The skill doesn't begin recharging until it's done casting. Thus, recycle is the true indicator of it's frequency of use.
Casts/Minute: 60s / Recycle

Energy/Minute: This is calculated by giving the net energy per use of the spell, multiplied by Casts/Minute.
Energy Pips: This is probably the most useful number for someone just looking at the numbers for the first time. Those 4 > arrows on the energy bar of your monk, the pips? This is the calculated amount of pips you add on to your bar through the use of the spell. It's calculated by taking (Energy/Minute) / 60 * 3. For more information on energy pips, click here.
Energy Swing/Minute: This is going to be the same on all the spells except for Energy Drain. This statistic describes the net change in energy from one character or team to another character or team. In EDrain's case, it steals 8 energy from the opponent and returns 16 energy to the caster. The energy swing adds both the energy stolen and the energy gained.
Energy Swing Pips: This is the Energy Swing/Minute converted to energy pips. See above for explanation of the calculation.

EDrain1 9 or 10 Inspiration
Recycle: 20.89
Casts/Minute: 2.87218765
Energy/Minute: 31.59406415
Energy Pips: 1.579703207
Energy Swing/Minute: 54.57156534
Energy Swing Pips: 2.728578267

Drain Ench2 10 Inspiration
Recycle: 20.98
Casts/Minute: 2.85986654
Energy/Minute: 23.45090562
Energy Pips: 1.172545281
Energy Swing/Minute: 23.45090562
Energy Swing Pips: 1.172545281

PDrain2 10 Inspiration
Recycle: 20.305
Casts/Minute: 2.954937208
Energy/Minute: 48.4609702
Energy Pips: 2.42304851
Energy Swing/Minute: 48.4609702
Energy Swing Pips: 2.42304851

MoR2 10 Inspiration
Recycle: 20.9
Casts/Minute: 2.870813397
Energy/Minute: 37.89473684
Energy Pips: 1.894736842
Energy Swing/Minute: 37.89473684
Energy Swing Pips: 1.894736842

Inspired Hex2 10 Inspiration
Recycle: 20.9
Casts/Minute: 2.870813397
Energy/Minute: 17.79904306
Energy Pips: 0.889952153
Energy Swing/Minute: 17.79904306
Energy Swing Pips: 0.889952153

OoB (Unadjusted)3 10 Blood
Recycle: 12.57
Casts/Minute: 4.77326969
Energy/Minute: 53.46062053
Energy Pips: 2.673031026
Energy Swing/Minute: 53.46062053
Energy Swing Pips: 2.673031026

OoB (Adjusted)4 10 Blood
Recycle: 12.57
Casts/Minute: 4.77326969
Energy/Minute: 34.36754177
Energy Pips: 1.718377088
Energy Swing/Minute: 34.36754177
Energy Swing Pips: 1.718377088

Note, if you have any questions about these numbers, post here and I'll give further explanation.

1. Using Garbok's Cane & 20/20 cast/rech offhand (Wand & Offhand)
2. Assumed are Garbok's Cane & Chalice (single 20% cast, dual 20% recharge mods, +1 20% Inspiration) (Wand & Offhand)
3. Assumed are Gordac's Needle & Hook Blood (dual 20% recharge mods, +1 20% Blood) (Wand & Offhand)
4. Assumed is the same equipment as 3, but the numbers are adjusted to account for the energy cost associated with healing the sacrifice caused by OoB. I used a value of 4e for this cost.

Now, what do all those numbers mean? Well, not a whole lot if you don't put them in context. Let's first compare the different elites to each other on their own merit.

EDrain

Benefits
Denies Enemy Energy

Has the most efficient net energy swing

Provides instant energy

Low initial investment of energy

Has no breakpoint at 10 Inspiration, allowing you to run 9 Inspiration to the same effect letting you free up some points for your other attributes.

Drawbacks
Forces you to overextend your position sometimes

1s cast is susceptible to interruption, and being trained on a warrior

Conditional upon the enemy being drained to actually have energy to drain

Mantra of Recall

Benefits
Highest energy return (outside of OoB where health sac is unconsidered)

Provides another Enchantment to be removed by CoP, removing an additional 1 Hex & Condition, and a larger heal

Cover enchantment for Divine Boon

Drawbacks
High intial energy cost

1s cast is susceptible to interruption, and being trained on a warrior

Energy return is delayed

Susceptible to being Stipped/Shattered/Drained when you don't need the energy, wasting the 10e intial investment, and wasting time it's recharging after it's removed. This also leads to easier exploitation of energy denial on the character with MoR

Offering of Blood

Benefits
Highest absolute energy return (not factoring in energy cost of healing the health sac)

Very low .25s cast

Instant energy

Drawbacks
High health sacrifice

Energy efficiency is cut back by the cost of healing the sacrifice

Time efficiency is cut back by the time it takes to heal the sacrifice.

JR · Mar 09, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Very nice work, shows just how good Drain Enchant is especially. Great to have some accurate numbers to look at.

Asplode · Mar 09, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

You forgot Bonetti's Defense! and... Wary stance!
-edit-
On a serious note, MoR's recycle is much more complex, because if you hit the half recast time %, you're forced to CoP and recast if you want to exploit the energy gain, giving it a 5e higher investment, and additionally if you are a boon monk you have to recast boon, another 5e investment, and then recast MoR for 10e. Of course, that's if you choose to take advantage of your recast proc.
-edit2-
I guess you can add edrain's lower min inspiration investment as a pro, assuming you're running that as your only inspiration skill.

JR · Mar 09, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

You forgot Bonetti's Defense! and... Wary stance!

I do hope you are joking.

Auntie I · Mar 09, 2006, 06:34 PM // 18:34

wheel you have OoB "unadjusted" and "adjusted". What do you mean? What's being adjusted?

wheel · Mar 09, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auntie I

wheel you have OoB "unadjusted" and "adjusted". What do you mean? What's being adjusted?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

OoB (Unadjusted)3 10 Blood
OoB (Adjusted)4 10 Blood

3. Assumed are Gordac's Needle & Hook Blood (dual 20% recharge mods, +1 20% Blood)
4. Assumed is the same equipment as 3, but adjusted for 4e cost of healing OoB sacrifice.

Read the fine print

Auntie I · Mar 09, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

Read the fine print

Ahhh. I did actually read the fine print, it just didn't seem clear to me at the time. OoB is odd in that you have to spend energy to mitigate the negative affects of using it.

wheel · Mar 09, 2006, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auntie I

Ahhh. I did actually read the fine print, it just didn't seem clear to me at the time. OoB is odd in that you have to spend energy to mitigate the negative affects of using it.

I'll rewrite the footnotes so they're a little more explanative.

IWF · Mar 09, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

The adjusted OoB was calculated before the sacrifice was changed to 20% or after?

wheel · Mar 09, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by IWF

The adjusted OoB was calculated before the sacrifice was changed to 20% or after?

All these numbers were done after the update.

Fenix Swiftblade · Mar 09, 2006, 08:54 PM // 20:54

What, nothing for Peace and Harmony?
Even if it isn't that great, it should be in the table for comparison.

ubard · Mar 09, 2006, 08:58 PM // 20:58

pretty snazzy. nice little guide there.

personally i am liking Edrain these days, works quite well.

for non-elite energy management drain enchantment is really nice, and i am surprised this is the first place i have seen it put up near the big energy management tools.

good show.

JR · Mar 09, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

What, nothing for Peace and Harmony?
Even if it isn't that great, it should be in the table for comparison.

P&H is very difficult to do. Partly because it is so damn open to being removed all the time, and partly because it can be kept up on multiple people. It is however still very poor energy management, so I don't think I would have bothered. If you are going to include trash like that, you may aswell include Consme Corpse, Bonnetis Defence... etc.

Fenix Swiftblade · Mar 09, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

0.99 pips versus the 1.57 or 1.71 of EDrain or OoB(adjusted)? It's not that much worse at all. The problem of course as you say, is the 30 second recharge, and the likelyhood of it being removed for a net gain of much much less than 0.99 pips. And of course, if you are going to be using this on a single character, the elite slot isn't worth it.

The things that I think save the skill from being complete trash are that it's linked to Divine Favor, which as a monk you'll have anyway, and that it can be cast on others. If you're only going to cast it on yourself, there isn't a point at all. If you're planning on attempting to maintain it on 2 or more people, you're getting 1.98 pips out of one skill. Also, the other monks in your party can be free to choose non-energy management elite skills.

The energy management provided by PnH isn't the main reason why it's never used, it's the difficulty in using it well. If it couldn't be removed, or had a very fast recharge, I think it would see quite a lot of play. The not attacking or damaging people is an issue, but now that you can actually use any non-smiting monk skill you want with it, it's a lot less restricting than it used to be. The biggest problem is making sure it's always on. Using lots of cover enchantments, Order of Pain, Aegis, etc, reduces that likelyhood, but you have to be able to really trust that your group will have them up most of the time. (and hope the other team doesn't bring Rend Enchantments...)

Again, a lot more drawbacks than the other skills, and less single target energy gain, but I think it has a lot of benefits that make up for it somewhat. The build it would be useful in would have to be very specific though.

The way I think of it is this:
Roughly 3 Energy Pips from one skill thats very difficult to use. The only question is, Is "very difficult" actually "immpossible".

One more small benefit I just thought of; when you have an energy denial mesmer depleting your energy, PnH works very well while focus swaping. Instead of having to use your energy management skill and then quickly swapping back down to hide it, you have the 5 regen going at all times. (again, assuming you can keep the enchantment on)

wheel · Mar 09, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

If players are to take this skill seriously, the recharge needs cut down a LOT more. It's not viable because of its recharge. Its effect when on two monks is fairly good, to be honest. Key word, here, is when. If you look at PnH with its duration cut down, say if it was being removed with fairly decent speed, its numbers are certainly less than stellar. Let's say that PnH stays up for 45 seconds. That's 10 net energy, or .667 pips. Drain Enchantment nearly outpaces PnH being maintained on two monks with them being drained every 45 seconds. It's just not worth it.

Fenix Swiftblade · Mar 09, 2006, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Right, thats exactly what I was saying. The effects of PnH are really good, but the ability to keep those effects going is really bad. If you can come up with a way to keep PnH going 90% of the time it will be worth it. (but then, you have to decide if what you are doing to keep it going is worth it as well)

I think that ANet should just bring the recharge down to 5 seconds. Theres already a restriction on how many people you can cast it on based on the attacking/damaging/targeting restrictions, so thats not a problem, and the duration vs recharge isn't restricting as it is.

Long story short, I think it's good enough to deserve a spot on the table. (even if it is the worst spot) But thats just my opinion.

Minus Sign · Mar 09, 2006, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Key Phrase:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

assuming you can keep the enchantment on

Don't assume that because you can't. Even if its not being self-stripped by CoP, its being torn out by Drain Enchant and other strips. By then the opposition knows you've got it, and they target you for interupt when you cast it next (on self or on other) and then you have no extra pips for 30 seconds for your healers. And remember, it was 45 seconds before+pain in the butt to make it effective (as a 1.98 group pip). That further colors its attempted buff: too little too late for not enough juice.

Monks don't make good group batteries. We tend to be too busy doing other stuff.

30 second recast+possibility of interupt kills P&H as a viable alternative to E.managment in PvP. PvE I love it though.

EDIT: didn't notice this was such a hot topic. 5 second recharge would make it too powerful. Think Smiteball, spamming self and team targetting spells on each other to do massive damage to the opposition with Zealot's. That can be done and makes a nasty lockdown if everyone in the group suddenly has+1 pip. It'd suddenly be on a quantitative measure with pre-nerfed IWAY:

"Come into my agro and let me heal you to death! Muahahahahaha!"

20 to 25 second recharge is a better way to go, and reduce the cast time to 3/4 to reduce chance of interupt. Then it'll see some play PvP.

Edit2: grats; she IS on the table now, lol.

Fenix Swiftblade · Mar 09, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

It ends when you do damage. Unless you plan to recast it every time you hit the enemy, theres no way you would put this on any type of offensive character. It already has a character limit built into it, the recharge doesn't need to affect it.

The only thing I didn't think of when saying the 5 seconds would work is that the recharge on enchantment removal spells is high, effectively making it basically immune to enchant removal. I think 15 would be a good balance.

icemonkey · Mar 09, 2006, 10:52 PM // 22:52

well you made my mind up insp hex and maybe a drain enchant,

BTW another skill worth actual consideration is power drain, i feel its just as conditional as drain enchant

Minus Sign · Mar 09, 2006, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

It ends when you do damage.

My bad. Another little tweak, if I'm not mistaken (used to be attack or cast a spell not targetting an ally).

15 would be better, but maybe a little too fast BECAUSE its a multi-target power regen. I still stick with 20 minimum to prevent exploitive practices and GvG lockdowns. If your group can't kill the other and they guarantee more mana regen than you, they can wear you down on mana, and then start targetting you for death after thy've burned through their spike.

EDIT: but also keep in mind, its 1.98 for 1 source of recharge to two characters. P&H is very rigid in the end, giving .99pip per character as opposed to near twice that if monks self manage